Comment from Paul to Michael D.
Hey, sorry I'm a little late in posting anything concerning your analysis. I just want to say that the statement you made concerning Hays was extremely important when he said, we need to retell the stories in the New Testament in a way that we find our place within them. This is a difficult thing to do, but like you said it will take some imagination on ou part, as well as our life being developed by God for the culture in which we live. Also the list of 'patterns of life', was in my mind a paraphrase of the New Testament. This analysis helped me already want to develop patterns in my own life that will contribute to this way of life.

Paul
Thanks for your analysis of Nicky Cruz and El Salvador. It did seem strange to bring that up but I understand it when you want to look at healthy models of the church "being" the church in this economic issue stuff. I know you are a proponent and so I am to a large degree of the "change coming missionally from within" rather than simply trying to crack away the fabric of the large structure. It is also true what you analysis points out that dealing with the poor and valuing them more than other groups can have a great affect on culture and that is scary. We don't want the rich to become poor if we crush them. However, I think a bit more faith is needed to trust that if we deal well with the poor as individuals, the church and as larger structures (government and large corporations) that God can help make all of that work out. We definately don't want to put down one group in order to raise up another. In the racial and gender stuff this past century has done some good but also at the expense of the other, at times. I know many men who feel emasculated by the feminist movement. I for one am glad for the feminist movement but I also see the downside of women being raised up at the expense of men (as an example).

Michael
Thanks for your stuff on N.T. Wright and the State. Such good stuff (I forwarded that link to my friends). I also liked your inclusion of Foster's stuff on Simplicity. I definantly think we should continue along the lines of our discussion this past week. In terms of economic justice in the u.s we should have categories for personal responsiblity as well as group or macro areas of responsiblity. I think that much of the Kingdom stuff in scripture is both micro and macro in its dealing with sin in our lives and our culture. Jesus wasn't afraid to move against institutions of power.

My mom is home from the hospital and so much better. Thanks for your prayers.

Comments from Paul to Erin:
In reading your analysis, I wanted to make a comment concerning the quotation from Amos. Israel was a theocracy. Israel means, "he will rule as God." I don't really have any other comments other than if we were a theocracy, that would mean everyone should look to the government for all their needs, as "Everyone" in the time of Amos looked to "Israel" for all their needs, since, "Israel will rule as God." I love reading your analysis. You and I looked up the same type of articles with the top 1% controlling almost all the wealth in this nation.

Hey all you guys!!!

I will not be at class today. Sorry! Please post anything that will be helpful. My mom is in the hospital today and we just had a work meeting that literally just ended. I am going to visit her at the hospital in a bit. I am just unable to get it together to come on time today. I will try and get my research up this week in a speedy fashion. Let me know if there is anything important that comes up in discussion today with our group. I am sorry. I am normally not flaky.

Erin

Comments from Paul to Erin
"Gangs of America" in describing corporate power. I had never heard that term used before. I think the anti-trust laws that we already have in place can combat certain practices within corporate America in allowing some companies to dominate the entire market. Ofcourse anti-trust laws only mainly deal with large companies though. The Federal Government can enforce laws that it has in place, but since it needs these companies for contributions during campaigns, the government picks and chooses how they want to enforce those laws. I enjoy reading your passion for this issue.

Comments from Paul to Mike E.

I had never heard of the books EverCool or Branded before. It seems as though this is par for the course in terms of advertising. The main function is to sell products. It probably is then only the responsibility of the individual who markets these products to maintain any sense of integrity. Without integrity, it is only about me and how much money can I make. I am looking forward to reading one of these two books.

Comments from Paul to Justin

Extremely informative in terms of the salaries of professional sports. The issue I believe is not so much what they make, but the fact that the American public still contributes to this amount being paid to professional atheletes. On 60 Minutes on Sunday, Ed Bradley interviewed Michael Jordan and although I know when we speak of the money that athletes make it is more because of the economic disparities and the fact that is places an unrealistic goal to much of today's inner city youth, that they will, "make it" to professional sports, when only the smallest of small percentages of athletes make it. Jordan stated on Sunday that the NBA is crumbling, because of the salaries being paid to athletes, without earning anything. Professional sports in the country is made into a "god", and is thought that it is the solution for all of lifes problems. Once again, when entertainment is worshiped there will always be dire consequences.

Comments from Paul

Michael D.
The analysis was very good. You and I have spoken concerning this issue. I wholeheartedly agree with the statement concerning, "our rights"... as Americans. I think that this philosophy is embedded in everything that we do. Individualism has gripped our society to the point that we no longer make decision based upon what is good for the community, what is truly good for people, but we make decisions as to what is good for me. My one question is, since most products are made in foreign countries, and it is very difficult to know where the product that one purchases is made, how do we deal with this problem?

Comments
Justin
Thanks for the information on the various salaries of both professional athletes and the business world. It is also interesting to see the urban statistics. The urban population is increasing each year and that affects not only prices of living in cities, but affects who lives in cities. I also liked your thoughts on the Jewish topic brought up at the lunch.
Mike
Branded sounds amazing. I will definately check that out and tell all of my friends who are parents. Such good and hard stuff to think about. I just think it is so sick and twisted for big companies to use child psychology to create little kid consumers. Children's emotional well-being should not rest on the purchase of a "cool" item. How very sad it is.
Michael
I liked your ideas on the fallacies of the scenerio you brought up. That even though we may not be able to change larger systems that we (our wiki) can challenge Christians to think of themselves not primarily as Americans (with an entitlement myth attached to that, in my opinion) but as followers of Jesus first, which will help us as we deal with the injustice of purchasing things that are cheaper for our benefit but that does not benefit people in other parts of the world.
Paul
I really thought beginning with the situation Lincoln found himself in was helpful for me. I also agree that both urban projects and "reservations" for native americans were two really bad ideas, as I am seeing welfare probably is as well. WE as the church need to step up and not just expect a big government to do it. However, I still think the government needs to consider both the rich and the poor, despite the fact that the government, for the most part, is made up of rich, white men (although that is changing).

Justin, I loved the resources and the information concerning how much Fuller cost's, it made me cry. Just kidding. I know that in the U.S., most people are consumers. We are a culture which is saturated with fulfilling our needs as human beings. I think about idolatry and people don't need to go very far to see humanism alive and well. Some Christians I believe are called to different lifestyles though. I am not saying that you are categorizing all people, but certain people buy certain products for all different reasons. I am in full agreement with the fact that many though including Christians buy products such as a Lexus, because a Lexus makes someone feel more important, or special. I would have to say that this would be a spiritual problem, (self-esteem). I think you are saying that we need to be good stewards of our finances and also this earth. You mentioned the shopping analogy. I think if we didn't "shop", it would mean that we didn't care how much something costs. It would have no bearing on how much we spend. I enjoyed the articles, and was enlightened that atleast one busing community in Virginia worked. For the most part, atleast in New England, Connecticut and Boston, it has not made a difference. See Sheff vs. O'Neill court case for information on law mandated busing in Connecticut. Magnet schools, though excellent idea, as long as the are accessible to all, by mainly a lottery system. Thanks.

To Justin's request for biblical stuff..
Amos 2:6-7
6 This is what the LORD says: "For three sins of Israel, even for four, I will not turn back {my wrath}. They sell the righteous for silver, and the needy for a pair of sandals.
7 They trample on the heads of the poor as upon the dust of the ground and deny justice to the oppressed.
Amos 4:1
1 Hear this word, you cows of Bashan on Mount Samaria, you women who oppress the poor and crush the needy and say to your husbands, "Bring us some drinks!"
Micah 2:2-3
2 They covet fields and seize them, and houses, and take them. They defraud a man of his home, a fellowman of his inheritance.
3 Therefore, the LORD says: "I am planning disaster against this people, from which you cannot save yourselves. You will no longer walk proudly, for it will be a time of calamity.
Malachi 3:5
5 "So I will come near to you for judgment. I will be quick to testify against sorcerers, adulterers and perjurers, against those who defraud laborers of their wages, who oppress the widows and the fatherless, and deprive aliens of justice, but do not fear me," says the LORD Almighty.
Ezekial 18:12-13
12 He oppresses the poor and needy. He commits robbery. He does not return what he took in pledge. He looks to the idols. He does detestable things.
13 He lends at usury and takes excessive interest. Will such a man live? He will not! Because he has done all these detestable things, he will surely be put to death and his blood will be on his own head.
Ezekial 22:29
29 The people of the land practice extortion and commit robbery; they oppress the poor and needy and mistreat the alien, denying them justice.

These I got off the top of my cursory search. I am sure there are more.

This is what I could gather so far...
Michael, I liked this link in particular: http://www.theocracywatch.org/rr_economics.htm - as I am particularly interested in the Christian response to the economics issues rather than just the "right wing" response, which is always assumed to be Christian but is often not, in my opinion. I liked this take on it a lot. I also liked your use of Catholic resources. I find that helpful and refreshing. Also the trinitarian stuff is interesting: http://www.acton.org/publicat/m_and_m/2001_fall/woehrling.html . However, I am not sure if we should just embrace an entire economic/political system and hope "true Christians" do well with it. However I do like his thoughts as quoted, "Christians could pursue a successful business life and engage in social work and in political organization while never confronting directly the specific problem raised by economics; namely, the rational allocation of resources with the aim of minimizing scarcity by maximizing wealth." I agree and think this is KEY. I don't think most wealthy and oblivious Christians are attempting to create poverty for others. I just think we have created a white-collar system that keeps most of the rich from ever having to see what their actions/choices mean for others down the ladder from them. I have a friend who is a realstate agent. He just bought an expenseive Mercedes. I don't think he is bad. I just don't think he asks himself the question of whether or not he actually needed that... I don't think most of us on a daily basis consciously think about how our individual consumer choices have spiritual power. I wish us to be confronted more with that reality.
Justin, I read Liquid Church this summer for another class I had on Emerging Church Leadership. I like Ward's notions of consumerism. He also really challenges the consumer mentality in church, but that is a side note. I like how you picked up his implications of consumerism and brought it home with stats for me. I had a "pin" issue with my bankcard/visa this weekend. I only use that card. My mom is not doing well. Gosh, I wanted to shop this weekend but couldn't do it. I had to live on the little cash I had. I was fine. But the pull to purchase something "fun" to deal with my conflicting emotions is so great. It is like an addiction. We are addicted to buying stuff.
Paul, your blog is hard for me to follow for some reason. I think the analysis is recent so I will comment on that. I do agree that personal holiness plays a part. I liked your stuff on Wesley in general. I do think that we all bear personal responsibility to each other. Their is a "social gospel" and I like how Wesley deals with that. I also liked this article: http://www.gmu.edu/departments/economics/wew/commentaries/02/may.htm
I quote also this fact that was interesting, "Williams states that the more personal freedom the government of one country gives to it's citizens, the wealthier the country. The more a country dominates, through governmental policy, he stated, "the poorer the country." It is weird that I have always viewed this kinds of ideas as so liberal. But it fascinates me now. Having looked at both minimum wage for the working poor and our current welfare system I see a direct link. When government dominates for almost any reason corruption inevitably follows. And that corruption then tends to perpetuate government dominance and the increase of lower classes and poverty. Increased government programs are not necessarily the answer. I shock myself!

I am on it, guys! Good talking with you today during class!!

E

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